A very warm welcome to the sometimes hot, sometimes spicy, sometimes wacky, sometimes dicey, occasionally brilliant and often informative world of JWDF.
~Merry
Merry Magdalene
JoinedPosts by Merry Magdalene
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Say Hi to MrsRoller!
by mrsroller inmy name is becky aka mrsroller.
i call myself that because the notorious rollerdave is my hubby.
i met dave when he was in his early thirties and it had only been a few years since he had left the jw's.
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74
Do Muslems and Christains have the same God?
by Undecided inthe koran and the bible says to do the same acts of violence to anyone who worships a different god.. deuteronomy 13:6-8, it reads: "if thy brother, the son of thy mother.
or thy son, or thy daughter, or thy wife of thy bosom.
or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; (7) namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth unto the other end of the earth (8) thou shalt not consent unto him, nor harken unto him; neither shalt thou conceal him (9) but thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.
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Merry Magdalene
Merry, In our society the government doesnt discriminate as to what religion a person chooses but from the verses quoted by you Islam would be the state religion. Muslim states are supposed to be ruled by Islamic law, true. This position is against the right of individuals to choose there own religion, and and against the principle christians have to preach the gospel to the world. Actually, individuals would be able to choose their own religion in a genuinely Islamic caliphate (khilapha). A government based religion allways results in discrimination and persecution. As people here have said before where are the churches in Saudi Arabia. Even the symble of the cross is outlawed there. According to one proposal for a modern caliphate (just some snippets):
Accountability (muhasabah) is not the first word that springs to mind when discussing the Muslim world. Dictatorship, rigged elections, tyranny and torture pretty much sum up most Muslim countries today. The level of cruelty inflicted upon the people easily rivals if not surpasses some of the worst oppression in history. Unfortunately for those living there accountability and the rule of law seem a distant dream.
The re-establishment of the Khilafah in the Muslim world will put an end to this oppression and establish an accountable government where no one is above the law.
Accountability in the Khilafah is guaranteed firstly through the institutions of government, secondly in the obligation to establish political parties and thirdly through an individual obligation on all the citizens.
The Caliphate is a unique political system from the ideology of Islam that bears no resemblance to any of the Muslim Governments today. It is a government built upon a concept of citizenship regardless of ethnicity, gender or creed and is totally opposed to the oppression of any religious or ethnic grouping.
Non-Muslims are referred to as dhimmi (people of contract) in the Caliphate, which means they enjoy the full rights of citizenship.The Prophet Muhammad (saw) said: "He who abuses a dhimmi [non-Muslim citizen] then I will be his rival and dispute him on the Day of Judgment."
Imam Qarafi (Classical Islamic Scholar) summed up the responsibility of the Caliphate to the dhimmi when he said: “It is the responsibility of the Muslims to the People of the Dhimma to care for their weak, fulfil the needs of the poor, feed the hungry, provide clothes, address them politely, and even tolerate their harm even if it was from a neighbour, even though the Muslim would have an upper hand. The Muslims must also advise them sincerely on their affairs and protect them against anyone who tries to hurt them or their family, steal their wealth, or violates their rights.”
Consultation is one of the pillars of ruling and a House of Representatives (majlis ash-shura) will exist in the capital and all provinces of the Caliphate. They will consist of men and women from all religions and ethnic groupings within the state. Non-Muslim representatives will have guaranteed seats in the House, to raise any concerns their communities have. They will not be required to take any oath that contradicts their beliefs in order to become a member of the House. Their only requirement is to obey the rules of the House and the Speaker.Taxation in the Caliphate is on excess wealth and not income, and there are no regressive taxes like VAT. The only taxes on companies are the agricultural land taxes (ushur and kharaj) that are a percentage of the agricultural produce or the land value. Non-agricultural companies do not pay this. Muslim owned companies will also pay the zakat tax, but non-Muslim companies are exempt from this.
Non-Muslim men must pay a nominal tax called Jizya that gives them full citizenship rights, exempting them from National Service and taxes specific to Muslims like zakat . Jizya is means tested and there are different bands for different levels of wealth. Caliph Omar imposed three bands for the Jizya tax - 4 dinars (£108) for the rich, 2 dinars (£54) for the middle class and 1 dinar (£27) for the poor. The Jizya tax rate is much lower rate than that of zakat , t herefore the tax burden of non-Muslims is lower than that of Muslims in the Caliphate.
The Caliphate cannot force or pressurise any non-Muslim to become Muslim. Churches, Synagogues and Temples are all protected by the Caliphate. Those who follow a religion can practise their religion without interference or harassment from the police and authorities....The Caliphate, unlike the intolerance of secular states, allows non-Muslims to have their own courts and judges to settle family law disputes and other matters related to their personal lives and religion.The Caliphate will encourage non-Muslims from other countries to visit it, study in its universities and conduct trade. Economic and cultural treaties will be signed to facilitate this. Any non-Muslim visiting the Caliphate from a country that the Caliphate has a treaty with, can enter without the need for a visa. They are called a Mu'ahid and have full protection under the state similar to the dhimmi . Historically scholars and scientists from Europe flocked to the Caliphate and studied in the universities of Cordoba, Cairo and Baghdad.
Non-Muslims are not obliged to do National Service, although they can join the Armed Forces if they wish. In the event of war it is the Muslims responsibility to fight and protect the non-Muslims from any harm.
Torturing anyone including prisoners of war is absolutely prohibited, and the perpetrators will face a severe punishment. Any evidence obtained via torture whether at home or abroad is not legally admissible in an Islamic Court.
http://caliphate.eu/index.htmThat said, I fully acknowledge that there can be a large gap between the ideal and the real. But we must all have an ideal to work and struggle and aim towards. I choose the Islamic ideal. I do not expect you to want to live there. But for me, capitalism and democracy leave much to be desired. So do all the other systems with which I am familiar (though I am no expert and have much to learn).
Admittedly these passages are toned down from the more extremist ones but maybe the Quaran can be over time interpreted in a more reasoned way.
Merry I would just feel safer if you want a non christian religion why not choose Budism they are the most peacefull of religions here is Australia we have more Budists than muslims but we hardely know they are there.
I have no desire to make you feel unsafe, Barry.
As for choosing a religion...I was raised a 4th-generation JW, left at the age of about 24, was an eclectic pagan for many years (interested primarily in Irish Druidry, Chinese Toaism, Indian Immortalism, Hawaiian Huna, Native American Shamanism and Feminist Wicca), then became a non-denominational Christian and attended a local Presbyterian Church for about a year before discovering and embracing Islam. It wasn't a matter of wanting a non-Christian religion, it was a matter of wanting truth. I originally wanted to convert a Muslim friend to Christianity, but it just didn't go down that way.
So, do Muslims have a right to try to establish an Islamic system of government (and to fight amongst themselves over it)? Do non-Muslims have a right to try to stop them and to interfere in their attempts, as they have so often done? Do Muslims have a right to defend and protect themselves/each other?
Did the early immigrants/invaders of America (founding fathers) have a right to establish their own independent form of government (and to fight amongst themselves over it)? Did the Zionist Jews have a right to establish a Jewish democracy and homeland? I would say yes to both, just not where it was done, in the harmful ways it was done, at the expense of people already living in those places whose only crime seemed to be--not going out of their own places and attacking those other groups but resisting occupation, genocide and ethnic cleansing when it was visited upon them.
That's kinda how I see things.
~Merry
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Do Muslems and Christains have the same God?
by Undecided inthe koran and the bible says to do the same acts of violence to anyone who worships a different god.. deuteronomy 13:6-8, it reads: "if thy brother, the son of thy mother.
or thy son, or thy daughter, or thy wife of thy bosom.
or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; (7) namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth unto the other end of the earth (8) thou shalt not consent unto him, nor harken unto him; neither shalt thou conceal him (9) but thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.
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Merry Magdalene
Derek,
Would you mind telling me what you mean by "grudge"? It's reminds me of the rather insulting and dismissive description I recently read where what is happening in Afghanistan and Iraq was described as each another "pebble" in the mountain of grievances erected by "militant fanatics." Pebbles? Grudges? Honestly!
Anyway, to answer your question, I would say that by "enemy" I mean all those who support the objectives and actions of the leaders responsible for war and other acts of aggression, whether they fight or not. To see everyone in an enemy nation as "the enemy" would be counterproductive and very unfair imo.
The terminology I resort to using, such as combatant and noncombatant and enemy, is inedequate to express the entirety of my meaning.
I also feel that it isn't only nation states that can be attacked and that have the right to defend themselves.
~Merry
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Iranian TV docu-drama.... on the Holocaust
by SixofNine inthis will probably surprise most everyone here except narkissos.
zero degree turn- iran's holocaust tv series.
from the wall street journal:iran's unlikely tv hit: show sympathetic to plight .
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Merry Magdalene
Just what I need!--a show to get hooked on that I won't be able to see every week. Or will I? Thanks for the YouTube link.
I like the added dimension such things give to what might otherwise be a somewhat flattened perspective. Thanks
~Merry
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Do Muslems and Christains have the same God?
by Undecided inthe koran and the bible says to do the same acts of violence to anyone who worships a different god.. deuteronomy 13:6-8, it reads: "if thy brother, the son of thy mother.
or thy son, or thy daughter, or thy wife of thy bosom.
or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; (7) namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth unto the other end of the earth (8) thou shalt not consent unto him, nor harken unto him; neither shalt thou conceal him (9) but thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.
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Merry Magdalene
- What's the difference between the communal responsibility of a nation that has attacked an Islamic State and that of the individuals therein.
- You mention several times that there are bounds on who may be attacked during a time of war, but I may have missed who those classes might be. Would you mind expounding on that for me, please? Perhaps, as a rider, you might explain how suicide bombing of school buses falls into your categorisation?
My apologies, LT. I thought I had those points pretty much covered in my last post. But either I didn't or else they got lost in it. I'll try again. It's the eve of Ramadan and I can't sleep anyway.Let me know if I'm still missing what you're trying to get at, will ya?
1. What's the difference between the communal responsibility of a nation that has attacked an Islamic State and that of the individuals therein?
I think there are differing opinions on that. (Non-Muslims aren't the only ones who can isolate and twist Qur'anic verses) So, to address such issues authoritatively, it is important to have Islamic knowledge and understanding of the Qur'an in its entirety (in Arabic), and the Sunnah and Islamic jurisprudence.
From what I have heard, Osama bin Laden does feel that Americans bear communal responsibility for the actions of their government in the Middle East. So he gives warning to them, that if they are unwilling or unable to change their government's policies and actions they should expect to be attacked and, just as civilians in the M.E. are not always protected from being targeted and are never protected from becoming collateral damage, neither should American citizens expect to be.
I believe Hamas feels similarly about Israelis, partly because Israelis are seen as wrongful occupiers (of more than just the West Bank and Gaza) who drove out the Palestinians in order to make a nation for themselves (with the permission of someone other than the Palestinians), and partly because all Israelis are required to serve in the military when old enough.
I understand the above views, but do not entirely agree. That is easy for me, though, not having the same history nor living in the same conditions or parts of the world as the people of whom I speak, and having only fought schoolyard bullies in my youth. I still feel that non-combatants should not be targeted and I do not condone collateral damage, because of my (obviously limited) reading of the Qur'an and Sunnah along with strong personal feelings. And I am not the only one.
2. You mention several times that there are bounds on who may be attacked during a time of war, but I may have missed who those classes might be. Would you mind expounding on that for me, please?
From my last post:
“But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).” (Qur'an 8:61)
Abu Bakr, the first caliph after Muhammad’s death, formulated a detailed set of rules for Islamic conduct during war. He gave the following instructions to a Muslim army setting out for Syria, which was then governed by the Byzantine Empire:
Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy’s flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone.
--http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/PUB588.pdfMuhammad also gave similar instructions:
"Do not kill any old person, any child or any woman." "Do not kill the monks in monasteries." "Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship."
Perhaps, as a rider, you might explain how suicide bombing of school buses falls into your categorisation?
Suicide Bombing Rider:
School buses totally off limits (unless they are filled with enemy combatants rather than children, I suppose). See answer to question number two regarding children.
In my belief, it is alright to terrorise your enemy, even the noncombatants amongst your enemies, but NOT by any violence done or threatened against said noncombatants, only by that against enemy combatants.
As to suicide bombing...There was a time when I would have said that suicide bombing was completely wrong, even if used only against enemy combatants. Why? Because Allah swt forbids suicide. But on further consideration, there are many operations during war that might be considered "suicide missions." In fact, being a warrior/soldier at all seems a bit suicidal. So, at this time, I would say there is a possibility of drawing a line between suicide to escape one's life and carrying out an operation against one's enemies that was guaranteed to also kill oneself. One poster mentioned the example of Sampson in the Bible. But I am not completely decided on the issue. Still under consideration. Human bombs seem to be one of those desperate choices made by those who are outmatched militarily.
From "Confessions of a Human Bomb in Palestine":
This is emphatically not the act of some one committing suicide! Suicide is a selfish act, the act of some one who repudiates life and embraces death as a solution. The human bomb does not repudiate life at all. The human bomb embraces death as a comrade in arms, acting as a weapon for the cause of justice and freedom from Occupation....The goal of the action of the human bomb is not his or her own death! The goal is to strike a resounding blow against the enemy. If our own deaths are required, then so be it, but we do not go out seeking our own deaths. Let that be very clear. The act of the human bomb is the ultimate act of protest against the extermination of our people.
All this talk of war makes me feel a bit ill, just not enough to give up the right of defense. But diplomacy first, please, and not just for show, something with substance.
Allah knows best.
~Merry
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Do Muslems and Christains have the same God?
by Undecided inthe koran and the bible says to do the same acts of violence to anyone who worships a different god.. deuteronomy 13:6-8, it reads: "if thy brother, the son of thy mother.
or thy son, or thy daughter, or thy wife of thy bosom.
or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; (7) namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth unto the other end of the earth (8) thou shalt not consent unto him, nor harken unto him; neither shalt thou conceal him (9) but thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.
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Merry Magdalene
Ok, I will try to be a little more clear on the issue of Muslims and Christians having the same God, especially in light of Old Testament and Qur'anic commands to kill.
***Islam teaches that there is only One God, in the sense of One Creator worthy of our love and submission in obedience, but that there are also many gods in the sense of what or who people may chose to devote themselves to instead of or in addition to the One God. We also believe that the Jews who originally embraced the message of Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him, were monotheists and did not espouse the divinity of Jesus, nor did he present himself as God the Son or Son of God.
"Then see you such a one as takes as his god his own vain desire?" (Qur'an 45:23)
"Yet they have taken, besides Him, gods that can create nothing but are themselves created..." (Qur'an 25:3)
"Allah, there is no god but He--the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal." (Qur'an 2:255)
"To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing. They say: "Allah hath begotten a son": Glory be to Him.--Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him. To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: When He decreeth a matter, He saith to it: "Be," and it is." (Qur'an 2:115-117)
"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was." (Qur'an 3:59)
"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no God except One God." (Qur'an 5:73)"Say you: 'We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord..." (Qur'an 2:136)
"Say: Will ye dispute with us about Allah, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that We are sincere (in our faith) in Him?" (Qur'an 2:139)
***Islam teaches that Muslims are to kill in war waged for self-defense and self-preservation. "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you..." (Qur'an 2:190)
"Jihad has been defined as being both a collective and an individual duty. Hence interpreters write that if Islam, or the Muslim community, is attacked, jihad is incumbent upon all Muslims and is required even of those who are normally noncombatants. Then, the nature of an attack, whether imminent and literal or the drawn out cultural onslaught of the West in tandem with specific political or military actions such as the war in Iraq, could alter the understanding of the jihad duty.
"However, the requirement to participate in a
jihad could be met in several ways: by waging war a) with the heart, b) with the tongue, c) with the hands, and d) with the sword. Jihad also means a personal struggle to live as a true Muslim. When jihad is considered a collective duty, there is no need to have a religious or political official proclaim it. However, from the standpoint of an individual duty and a just pursuit of war, this should occur."
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/PUB588.pdfThe sanctioning of warfare is accompanied by a caveat of restraint, and fighters are commanded not to transgress bounds or limits. What limits?
“But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).” (Qur'an 8:61)
Abu Bakr, the first caliph after Muhammad’s death, formulated a detailed set of rules for Islamic conduct during war. He gave the following instructions to a Muslim army setting out for Syria, which was then governed by the Byzantine Empire:
Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy’s flock, save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone.
--http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/PUB588.pdf***Making an aggressing nation submit to the rule of Islam after victory in battle ("Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." -- Qur'an 9:29) is a different thing from converting unbelievers to Islam, which is to be done according to the following:
"Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance." (Qur'an 16:125)
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.” (Qur'an 2:256).
***Allah swt does not love those who transgress in war (2:190), nor those who kill without just cause (25:68), and He loves not mischief (2:205). He is strict in punishment (2:196) but also forgiving, again and again, and generous (17:25) (22:50) (38:66).
"If you loan to Allah a beautiful loan, He will double it to your (credit), and He will grant your Forgiveness..." (64:17).
"But do good; for Allah loves those who do good." (Qur'an 2:195)
"...Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean." (Qur'an 2:222)
As a final note:
Some Western readers will probably find the Islamic rulings on war to be contradictory. It may not be clear whether they promote war or peace. Muslims believe the Quran to be divinely revealed, and Quran experts hold that the text must be understood in the spirit of its entirety, and not simply reduced to selected verses or phrases. Surah 3, al-Imran, verse 7 reads:
And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/PUB588.pdf
I have tried to give a little more context and to counterbalance the verses cited by others with more verses to give a slightly fuller, and imo, more accurate picture of Islam, inshaAllah. I can understand people's thoughts and feelings toward Islam and Muslims as I have had similar questions and concerns myself, and I continue to dig deeply and persistently in search of the answers. I hope that you will too.
~Merry
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Merry Magdalene
Love and sorrow for all the victims of 9/11
~Merry
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For all you Jesus freaks out there.
by Shawn10538 inwhich scriptures are the best for describing just exactly who jesus is?
thanks for playing.
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Merry Magdalene
About Jesus Freaks:
I remember my mom picking up a hitchhiker once when I was a little kid. He had long hair, a beard, and was wearing a long white robe and sandals. He said he was what people were calling a "Jesus Freak" in those days. I thought he was the coolest: kind, gentle, radiating love and peace.
My mom "witnessed" to him the whole time he was in our car. When he got out, he was still kind, gentle, radiating love and peace. I was definitely impressed. lol
From wikipedia:
The terms Jesus movement and Jesus people were coined by Duane Pederson in his writings for the Hollywood Free Paper. The term Jesus freak was originally a pejorative label imposed on the group by non-Christian hippies, but members of the Jesus movement reclaimed the phrase as a positive self-identifier.
Though still a part of the broader hippie movement, the Jesus movement was partly a reaction against the counterculture from which it originated. Some people became disenchanted with the status quo and became hippies. Later, some of these people became disenchanted with the hippie lifestyle and became Jesus people. [citation needed] However, the Jesus movement kept many of the mannerisms and styles of the hippies, but changed the cultural content to reflect their newfound Christian faith. For example, the Jesus people gave hippieslang a Christian spin: "free love", [citation needed] instead of designating a rejection of traditional morality regarding sex, became the free (agape) love of God and people; phrases like "One Way" supplanted the focus on the individual with a focus on God, and; "Just Drop Jesus" replaced "dropping" acid or being "high on Jesus". It also became quite common to speak of "Truckin' with Jesus" in place of the Biblical term "Walking with the Lord." When inquiring of someone's well-being, it would often be said, "Oh, he's TRUCKIN'" meaning that he is doing really well. Many of this movements adherents were hippies; former drug-users, drinkers, prostitutes, wiccans, and music enthusiasts. They mingled well with other church goers for a long time.
The movement as a whole was characterized by a resurgence of brotherly love and kindness during an era in which society was being torn apart by the Vietnam War, venereal disease and other social maladies of the day.
The Jesus movement was part of what some consider to be the Fourth Great Awakening, one of the periodic shifts in religious thinking that have occurred throughout American history.
And about Jesus, peace be upon him:
He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; (He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"! Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. --Qur'an 19: 30-34
~Merry
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Do Muslems and Christains have the same God?
by Undecided inthe koran and the bible says to do the same acts of violence to anyone who worships a different god.. deuteronomy 13:6-8, it reads: "if thy brother, the son of thy mother.
or thy son, or thy daughter, or thy wife of thy bosom.
or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; (7) namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth unto the other end of the earth (8) thou shalt not consent unto him, nor harken unto him; neither shalt thou conceal him (9) but thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.
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Merry Magdalene
"Muslims outright deny the Sonship of Jesus Christ; therefore, Islam is of the Devil. Islam is a damnable organization, who denies Jesus Christ. Don't believe the lie, not for one second--that Muslims and Christians worship the SAME God. No, we don't! The Koran clearly states in, The Women 4.171, that God has NO Son. In sharp contrast, John 3:16 in the Word of God declares that God DOES have a Son, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." The Koran even goes as far as to claim that Jesus never died, nor was He crucified (The Women, 4.157)."
Correct. Muslims are strict monotheists. That doesn't mean Islam is of the Devil, however. We accept and honor the Prophets God sent to all nations throughout history. The names of those we know of through the Qur'an include Abraham, Moses, Solomon, David, John, and Jesus, peace be upon them all. We believe Christians were originally monotheists too and did not worship a Trinity nor Jesus as God nor the Son of God. We believe the Jewish and Christian scriptures and message were corrupted and that the final message through the Qur'an and Prophet Muhammad has been protected from corruption. We believe that no one can carry someone else's burden of sin, but are each responsible for ourselves and are forgiven individually on the basis of repentence and obedience. So far as I understand it.
~Merry
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74
Do Muslems and Christains have the same God?
by Undecided inthe koran and the bible says to do the same acts of violence to anyone who worships a different god.. deuteronomy 13:6-8, it reads: "if thy brother, the son of thy mother.
or thy son, or thy daughter, or thy wife of thy bosom.
or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; (7) namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth unto the other end of the earth (8) thou shalt not consent unto him, nor harken unto him; neither shalt thou conceal him (9) but thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.
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Merry Magdalene
Hi LT, fancy meeting you here! Always a pleasure.
Just a single rider to your comments, as told me by several Muslim friends - I am informed that there is a corporate responsibility thing in the Islamic mentality. Where Jihad has been proclaimed there is a war that is conducted at least in one place on earth and every opposer is classed as an unbeliever. Hence American unbelievers on American soil are all classed as opposers and are fair game for the current conflicts. The only staying hand, aside from sensibilities, is that war is being conducted on Iraqi soil and so the communal responsibility to take action "somewhere" is being fulfilled leaving the rest of the worldwide Islamic community to have a free conscience to live their day-to-day lives normally.
I think there are varying views on that, if I understand what you are saying. Basically, I would answer that all unbelievers are classed as unbelievers, but not all unbelievers are opponents. Non-combatants are still non-combatants and should be protected and respected as such according to the rules of engagement. I have heard that some Muslims feel that if Muslim civilians are being killed by America and her allies then it is only fair for their civilians to be killed in return. At this point, although I understand it, I do not agree with it, because of what the Qur'an says and because of how careful Muhammad was in battle, in addition to my personal feelings.
I would agree the koran is more in keeping with the old mosaic law of the old testament.
To some extent.
As for christians we are not under the old way of a written law but under the new way of the spirit.
It is to bad that so many, Christians and Muslims alike, haven't lived as we claim we are supposed to do.
Again the verses show Islam to be a viscous and unforgiving religion. Anyone who would crucify and mutilate prisoners of war would be tried as a war criminal in todays courts.
From what I saw, what was quoted included the fierceness of battle during war, not just taking prisoners after the battle. And no matter how just, fighting is always brutal, is it not? When someone attacks, it is brutal. When someone defends themselves and others from attack, they can't be gentle about it if they want to be effective. That is why there are rules of engagement, so that warriors will be mindful not to transgress bounds, non-combatants won't be hurt and killed, livelihoods will not be destroyed, truces can hopefully be called and peace made, limiting the loss of life. As I understand it, in the midst of battle, one fights as hard as one can to win; when possible one makes prisoners of enemy combatants, rather than killing them all; and one deals with war criminals as war criminals. But there are limits on this too. Punishments must be carried out lawfully, not vigilante style. But you won't get that from reading a few verses. You would have to know the entire Qur'an and Sunnah and understand shari'ah, or consult someone who does.
Islam is a more forgiving religion than you know. The enemies of Islam do not want you to know the truth about it as that would make it a little harder to rally people against it (but only a little, I think).
And yes Merry this conduct is far worse than civilised countries operate on the whole and any normal person would and should be horrified. Even in abio grabe prison the American soilders only humiliated there prisoners by putting womens panties on there head and haveing women soilders lead them around. Isnt that terrible crime. They think of women as worth nothing, that was there real problem. Some men in the west would love a pair of womens nickers to do weird things to.Or to be led around like a dog and they even pay good money for the privilage.
Please don't make me show you pictures of what your 'civilised' countries do 'on the whole.' And do you really think women's panties and dog leashes is all that was inflicted on prisoners at abu ghraib?!? Your comments on this would be truly horrifying to me if I did not reassure myself that you are simply ignorant of the reality. Although how you can be, I just don't know. And what some men in the West would love is definitely not the issue here. Oh, and Iraqi men think of their women as worth nothing???
...dogs snarling at cowering prisoners, Iraqi women forced to expose their breasts, and naked prisoners forced to have sex with each other...
- Urinating on detainees
- Jumping on detainee's leg (a limb already wounded by gunfire) with such force that it could not thereafter heal properly
- Continuing by pounding detainee's wounded leg with collapsible metal baton
- Pouring phosphoric acid on detainees
- Sodomization of detainees with a baton
- Tying ropes to the detainees' legs or penises and dragging them across the floor.
What right has the muslim world to judge us anyway i dont have any reguard for there laws or opinions.
Hmmmmm....I think most of the leaders in the West feel just as you do on this. Makes for some interesting foreign policy, doesn't it?
Anyway you are a good sport Merry allways comming back here.
Thanks, Barry, but I'm not feeling terribly sporting at the moment. This is very serious to me. Especially as I see growing signs that the world may well be heading towards a Muslim holocaust in which gentlemen like you may well be cheering on the captivity, torture and death of ladies like me who support the Muslim right of self-defense and defense of an Islamic way of life against all aggressors.
Thanks for continuing this discussion, Ken!
I have no knowledge of the Muslem religion except what I hear and see on the news. They seem to have no remorse for killing anyone they can if they are following their crazy leaders. Why are almost all the ones who blow themselves up in an attempt to kill as many others as they can, Muslems? Christains have about the same history during the dark ages. The Gods that religious people through history have worshiped seem to like this kind of conduct.
It was the same for me not so long ago, having no knowledge of the Muslim religion except what I heard and saw on the news. Then I became friends online with a Muslim in Turkey and started trying to inform myself a bit more...and ended up becoming a Muslim myself. Please don't believe everything you hear or accept the broader picture it paints without looking into things more deeply and within the larger context. Question everything, one piece at a time. Then see the picture that begins developing.
Most Christain religions today don't view God as requiring his followers to kill others except in times of war and it can be against other Christain nations. Of course they don't get a bunch of virgins when they get to heaven. The Muslems fight one another also, depending what tribe you belong to.
That is the point I was trying to make in regard to the teachings of Islam. I hope you didn't miss it. But whereas it appears Christians were not given any rules for war in the New Testament, Muslims were given rules. But, alas, humans are always fighting humans, whatever their stated religion or lack thereof. I believe that each of us will bear responsibility before our Creator for what we did or didn't do in this life.
Religion can be as Rutherford stated,"A snare and a racket." Religion can also be a way to cope with life and mostly death. I attended church yeaterday with my wife and I can see how on occasions it does help people become better persons. I really think it is an emotional stimulas to try to answer the questions of life for us poor stupid humans who have no idea what life really is.
I can agree with you to a certain extent here! And I wish you all the best, in this life and the next.~Merry